Author Topic: David Graeber on government debt  (Read 6661 times)

Offline Don Basilio

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #120 on: November 19, 2011, 02:48:08 pm »
Screwtape, a devil, advises another devil:

And all the time the joke is that the word "Mine" in its fully possessive sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything.  In the long run either Our Father (ie the devil) or the Enemy (ie God) will say “Mine" of each thing that exists... They will find out in the end, never fear, to whom their time, their souls and their bodies really belong – certainly not to them, whatever happens.
We can exercise compassion, compassion born of empathy.  Both words are synonyms for love, by which I don’t mean a romantic feeling but the readiness to give proper attention to whoever or whatever is before our eyes.  Michael Mayne

Offline JSC

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #121 on: November 19, 2011, 02:51:38 pm »
I was familiar with the concept of Jubilee from Ken Leech.
?
Auch Engeln sind immer unterwegs.

Offline Don Basilio

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We can exercise compassion, compassion born of empathy.  Both words are synonyms for love, by which I don’t mean a romantic feeling but the readiness to give proper attention to whoever or whatever is before our eyes.  Michael Mayne

Offline Ubu-Impudicus

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2011, 04:06:34 pm »
I did read the Barclay link, thank you jean and was interested.

I'd never heard this "trespasses is catholic" theory before: (trespasses is  used in the latest RC approved translation of the missal, I notice).

I was trying to think of a rationale for the Scottish view and I think I'm on to  something.  Scottish Presbyterians aren't nonconformist: it's the Anglicans who are nonconformists in Scotland, and I suspect they are lumped together with the RCs as unreconstructed Christians still with bishops.  Would the Presbyterian Kirk want to distance itself from the English?

Whereas English nonconformists might see themselves as the authentic interpreters of protestant and Biblical tradition rather than the socially privileged and decadent state church.

This is the view of christianity in Scotland after the clearances. Before them the north especially was a stronghold of catholicism (support for the Stuart "pretenders" etc.), but after the clearances the demographic (of people, not sheep) seems to have changed a bit, in that the last of the Gaelic speakers died out in, or left the east coast, and now the highlands and islands, former stronghold of jacobitism, is noted for its especially strict "wee frees".
 Whe I lived there (some years ago now) some old people would refer to the episcopalian  church (i.e. the actual building) as "the English kirk" similarly to the way the (poorer) catholics in Ireland during the days of total British occupation would refer to the C of E episcopalian church as " the English church." A digression, but maybe germane to the equation of established religion (usually transient)with the ruling or occupying class.
 More relevant to the thread is the concept of the "protestant work ethic" (Tawney & others) which would tend to regard liberty as a duty as much as a right.

Offline Don Basilio

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2011, 04:30:03 pm »
The position of Scottish Presbyterians and Irish Catholics were completely different.  They were the national church in Scotland, supported by the government, with the monarch sending their representative to the General Synod.  There was no equivalent of the Anglo Irish, and if there were they would have been Lowland Presbyterian. 

The suppression of the Jacobites was as much due to the Presbyterian Whigs as to the English.  The Scots had encouraged the English Parliamentarians to rise against Charles I for his alleged Popery.

This had better be my last intervention here.

PS The Anglicans in Scotland in the C18 were solidly Jacobite.  That's why they didn't go to the Kirk.  The schism in the Presbyterian Kirk in the 1840s was precisely over the issue of who appointed the minister, the laird or the congregation.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 04:50:03 pm by Don Basilio »
We can exercise compassion, compassion born of empathy.  Both words are synonyms for love, by which I don’t mean a romantic feeling but the readiness to give proper attention to whoever or whatever is before our eyes.  Michael Mayne

Offline George Garnett

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #125 on: November 19, 2011, 05:18:55 pm »
When I lived there (some years ago now) some old people would refer to the episcopalian church (i.e. the actual building) as "the English kirk".
They still do, Ubu, in the part of the Highlands I go to regularly. And the people who go to 'the English kirk' are referred to, amiably as far as I can tell, as 'the piscies' :)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 05:20:50 pm by George Garnett »

Offline jean

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #126 on: November 19, 2011, 05:27:42 pm »
...similarly to the way the (poorer) catholics in Ireland during the days of total British occupation would refer to the C of E episcopalian church as " the English church."

Though Episcopalian, it isn't  C of E - it's Church of Ireland, and that's what all my Irish C of I relatives called it.

I don't know what the Catholics said - I was never allowed to talk to them (especially the poorer ones).

Offline AZomby

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #127 on: November 20, 2011, 02:50:50 am »
... On the other hand Muslim banks do not charge interest at all.
Yes indeed. Would you credit it? No insurance against losses either.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 03:02:59 am by AZomby »

Offline chivhu

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #128 on: November 20, 2011, 10:24:35 am »
On the other hand they do operate on a profit principle if an element of risk occurs in the investment (e.g. investing in a new business) .

Offline David Underdown

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #129 on: November 23, 2011, 07:37:46 pm »
...similarly to the way the (poorer) catholics in Ireland during the days of total British occupation would refer to the C of E episcopalian church as " the English church."

Though Episcopalian, it isn't  C of E - it's Church of Ireland, and that's what all my Irish C of I relatives called it.

I don't know what the Catholics said - I was never allowed to talk to them (especially the poorer ones).

From the Act of Union in 1801 until disestablishment of the Church of Ireland it was a single united church covering Ireland and England (and indeed Wales), so I can see how it would be perceived as the English Church

Chafing Dish

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #130 on: November 30, 2011, 12:27:03 pm »
This recent Graeber piece isn't 'on government debt' but still I think wonderfully thought-provoking.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/2011112872835904508.html

Perhaps it will provoke some discussion here?

simon howard

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #131 on: November 30, 2011, 12:40:00 pm »
Thanks for the link :). A few preliminary thoughts.

There are anarchists who would dismiss a lot of what Graeber advocates as 'lifestyle anarchism'; they advocate direct confrontation with the state and the police, violence and damage to property. I'm not an anarchist, so don't 'agree' with them: but Graeber's piece does come over rather as cool, hip, alternative etc. in ways that plenty of anarchists would repudiate.

Traditional Marxism, of course, aspired to the same ultimate goal but there was a key difference. Most Marxists insisted that it was necessary first to seize state power, and all the mechanisms of bureaucratic violence that come with it, and use them to transform society - to the point where, they argued such mechanisms would, ultimately, become redundant and fade away. Even back in the 19th century, anarchists argued that this was a pipe dream. One cannot, they argued, create peace by training for war, equality by creating top-down chains of command, or, for that matter, human happiness by becoming grim joyless revolutionaries who sacrifice all personal self-realisation or self-fulfillment to the cause.


That's a caricature, & Graeber must know that. Marx was enthusiastic about the Paris Commune, which was popular & largely undirected. & if pipe dreams are involved, I don't see anywhere Graeber explaining how his non-violent anarchism will deal with the brute facts of the police & military wings of the state in any revolutionary situation. Some of what he writes ("top-down chain of commands") reads worryingly close to 'creatives' & management jargon to me.

" ... consensus process (a tradition that has emerged from a confluence of feminism, anarchism and spiritual traditions like the Quakers)."

It really does read like "lifestyle" politics to me. Eclectic, niche market, activism ....
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 12:43:21 pm by simon howard »

simon howard

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2011, 06:29:39 pm »
Having typed the above somewhat testy screed ::) ... here's another interview with David Graeber http://www.thewhitereview.org/interviews/interview-with-david-graeber/

Offline AZomby

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2011, 06:38:10 pm »
"Inside Job"
Storyville 21:00  tonight (07 Dec) BBC2.
Some links here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzzJ-BKM6cU

Although sadly it may be another docu-drama styley thingy.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:45:42 pm by AZomby »

Offline Walter Od

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Re: David Graeber on government debt
« Reply #134 on: August 02, 2014, 04:21:50 pm »
Here's an interesting article -

http://www.thebaffler.com/salvos/whats-the-point-if-we-cant-have-fun

Reminds me of the book A Very Short Introduction to Consciousness that I read a few months ago. A book which really is short for all the ground it tries to cover. Here, that topic crops up amongst a discussion on evolution.
The mar of murmury mermers to the mind's ear